Ep 9: Navigating Paradox of Choice in Beauty & Personal Care with Arush

Kausambi
Super, all right. Hi everybody, so we're back on episode three and today I have with me Arush Chopra. He's the CEO and co-founder of Just Herbs and first generation entrepreneur. He gave up his corporate career in Singapore to start Just Herbs with Mega in 2014, his wife Mega. Interestingly, I found this very interesting. Arush's mother, was a biochemist and she studied Ayurveda and naturopathy and actually created on her own some very effective formulations which Aarush decided to brand under Just Albs and bring to premium consumers in India. So very excited to hear more about this very interesting backstory, different from a ton of other people we have spoken to Aarush. And we want to dive into that and zoom into the new wave of luxury commerce shoppers today in India. So welcome.

Arush
Thank you very much. Thank you. Glad to be here.

Kausambi
Awesome. So I think before we dive in, I started with a little bit of the snippet about, you know, your backstory. So listeners definitely would want to know a bit more about that. Walk us through the story of where it all began.

Arush
Yeah, I think so. You know, I've been doing this since the time I tell people D2C wasn't even a word. Like, so we didn't know we were doing D2C when we started. I moved back to India, used to live in Singapore, working the corporate life and always wanted to do something on my own. The question was what? When I look back, you know, my mom, she was always, you know, mixing lotions and potions and you know, she's a biochemist by education. And then she studied Ayurveda and what she was doing back home was, you know, definitely not a business, but a little bit more than a hobby. Cause she would give those, you know, products to people and you know, that the feedback was always fantastic. Megha, who's my wife now and my co-founder, was also my girlfriend back then when I was in college and I would give her these, you know, little bottles mom would prepare and she and her friends always thought that they were very effective. Although they were just three, four formulations, very basic, nothing very finished. But when I was working later on, I thought that you look, you know, mom does this stuff and I think there's a big potential for this. And also, you know, just wanted to kind of just come back and do something of our own. It wasn't all it was never about sort of making money or riding the Ayurveda boom or what have you.

‍
Things weren't as organized, the ecosystem hadn't been built up, the D2C ecosystem the way it is today. There is nothing of that. So we came back and a lot of people advise you that why are you doing this? Why does the world need yet another natural beauty brand? They used to say that in 2014, they say that even now. Beauty is a very competitive market.

They said that then, they said it now. So in spite of all that, we just decided to kind of put our heads down and start working. Right from getting the formulas right, getting the raw materials right, the supply chain right. We make the products ourselves, right? Even now, we manufacture them, so we're fully vertically integrated in that sense. So we started there with very humble beginnings, right? Just got a website made with some of my savings.

I learned how to drive traffic to that website through paid means, through organic means, etc. Did all of that. E-commerce had barely taken off in India. I'm talking about a time when Naikha was just a PowerPoint presentation and Flipkart was only selling books, right? So, sounds weird right now, but I think you know what I'm talking about. You've been with Myntra as well. So that's when we started. For years, we were a bootstrapped company, profitable, doing things our way, building the brand very patiently, consciously, brick by brick and doing it out of a non-metro city. So I tell people, I don't have an MBA, I'm not building out of a metro city. So if somebody says, look, I don't have access to talent, etc., I usually tell them, that's not true. You can do it sitting anywhere. If I could do it, so could you.

Arush
So did that for about four years and then we decided that we needed some external capital because if you really want to build a team and do this professionally, scale it up, then we will need money. So we raised a small amount of capital from a VC firm. But within, I think, within 18 to 20 months of them sitting on our cap table, we gave them a very nice exit when Marico, the FMCG company took a controlling stake in the brand and we continue to build it to this day from Chandigarh, just the way it's just that the scale of things has changed, but the way we do things, etc., really hasn't. So that's us.

Kausambi
You've been all over right like Singapore you spent quite a time quite a while there, Holland before that What made you choose India and that too back at a time when D2C was not even a thing?

Arush
See, the thing was I always knew that I wanted to do something back home. And without being very patriotic about it, I think the idea was that whilst I was in Singapore, we would always pitch to clients, investment products, telling them that, look, we are investing in markets like Vietnam, Indonesia, where there's a lot of young population, high disposable income, etc. And then I would think to myself, look, that is true of India.

‍
Right. That is basically this is like a microcosm of what we're seeing happening in India. And you know the amount of people there are in these island countries. There's probably more people in a state like Uttar Pradesh in India, right. So what are we even doing here? We're quite young. We should definitely pack our bags back home and go back home and do something out there. And once we had decided that I just thought that

And having lived in the orderly sort of life of Singapore and Europe before that, I couldn't take the chaos off, you know, a Delhi or a Bombay. So there it was a personal decision to, you know, do something from where I grew up. I, you know, it's last 12 hours in Chandigarh, I thought I'll do something here. There was no ecosystem. Even now it's, it's very, it's, it's a nascent stage here. But I guess, you know, that's where, that's where the maximum growth comes from, from places where, you know things are just getting set up and that's basically what is happening.

Kausambi
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very interesting, very counterintuitive to think about, especially back in 2015, 2014, thinking of starting in one of, not the primary metro cities where you think about start of being starting out of. And I agree with you, like if someone comes back and says that, hey, like I'm in a different city, I don't have access, I think I'm gonna quote you and just us from now on.

The BBC is of course, as you rightly said, super fast growing segment in India, beauty and personal care. I think it's been traditionally very ingrained in India with Ayurvedic recipes and Nuskas, if you may pass down generations, right? I heard like 2022, I think BBC grew to about 26.3 billion or something of like that sort dollars in India is massive market.
‍
So with that burst of growth, I'm sure there's this paradox of choice for consumers today, right? So in the zero to one days, we'll break it down into two parts. I think in the zero to one days of Just Herbs, how long did it take for you to find that right segment and the right message? Because of course, I'm sure that would have taken a little bit of thought and some sort of iterations over there.

Kausambi
And how did you continue to differentiate as you grew from one to 10 until the whole marico infusion happened?

Arush
So I think our journey there also, since we never had seed capital or anything of that sort, there was never that luxury to sort of, sort of hire a professional design agency and make packaging. You know, packaging was done just sitting on the dining table, you know, paying somebody part-time to come and use, you know, the software and make some labels. We would basically go deliver parcels ourselves. I still remember I saw there was a parcel which was from ‍you know, not too far away from where we lived. So I decided on my evening jog, I'm going to go deliver this parcel. And you know, the guy said, you look like the owner of the company. And I'm like, yes, I am. And he called me inside and he gave me some nimbu bunny. And then his wife who had ordered the product started asking me if I'm hiring and if I have space in my team. So it was really that basic, right? So there was no sort of big thinking or planning or anything. It was more about just going in and doing stuff.

‍
I'm talking about a time when the cash on delivery ecosystem wasn't developed. I mean, swear to God this happened to us. I mean, we had to get some money from the courier and the guys like, oh, the money was spent. You know, my guy spent that money. Right. I'm talking about I'm talking about when parcels used to get lost. And, you know, even the logistics ecosystem was still getting built. So we've kind of we've just been it's been a lot of trial and error. It's been a lot of mistakes, learnings that we've gone through. And then I think to your question about how do you sort of, I think what you were alluding to is that there's a lot of players and how do you kind of differentiate yourself. I think for us, you know, when, I personally believe that when there's too many people, you know, talking about the same thing, the same features and benefits, et cetera, et cetera, there's no point talking about it, right? So,

We don't talk about the fact that we are paraben free. We don't talk about the fact that we're free from XYZ, the certification, the claim. Those are just a given, right? That's hygiene. There's no extra marks for that. Perhaps when we started, that was a novelty, but throughout this journey, we've always had to kind of respond to how the consumer has changed, right? And kept listening to the consumer very carefully. And I think what we kind of built out into our DNA. So we are perhaps India's only company to actually crowdsource product development. So we've launched about five products where we actually invite customers to become participants in the product making process. So consumers will tell us, why don't you make XYZ? And then we would make prototypes and then send it to them and then receive responses and then tweak the product and then, you know, launch the final product. In fact, we used to be only into skincare and that's how we kind of expanded into categories according to makeup. We started with Ayurvedic lipsticks and as a tribute to the consumers who helped us, we even named those shades after women. So that's just an example of how we thought innovatively to become close to the consumer and create what we call brand love.

We continue to do that. Today what Just Herbs is all about is that it's a full stack beauty brand. What I mean is we straddle categories. We have skincare, hair care, fragrance and makeup. And all of this is combined with a thread of wholesome beauty, right? And the philosophy is that of traditional principles, modern practices, right? So it's at the heart of it, it's all Ayurveda.

But we use modern science, modern thinking, et cetera, to present products to you in a format that millennials in Gen Z can use it. That's the essence of.

Kausambi
Got it. And interesting thing you mentioned is that, in a way what you're doing is you are taking the people and your consumers and your shoppers into your go-to-market strategy with your product expansion, part of your strategy for sure, right? So if you have to kind of like step back and I'm sure a lot of our listeners are younger brands who are probably starting out a little bit early, what would you share with them in retrospect as a little bit of a framework, however nascent of how to think of bringing consumers into your go-to-market. How do you bring your consumer philosophy into your go-to-market strategy?

Arush
No, I think, I mean, it depends on the category that you are in. I mean, I personally saw that beauty is one category which is very top down, right? So, I mean, I saw that around me now in a world where everybody is kind of dictating what they want to watch. They're not going to watch, you know, on the regular TV programming. They're going to seek out what they want on Netflix. They want to order what they want, right? When they want it. It's all about choice.

‍
And here's a very big industry where there's absolutely zero choice, right? Where you have absolutely zero say in the products you're going to consume. So if I'm a big company with lots of marketing dollars, I'm going to tell you that Moroccan oil is really good for you, right? And then I'm going to create, you know, the classic definition of marketing, create wants and desires so that you end up buying that Moroccan oil. But the point is what about coconut oil, which is locally available? It's very good for you, right? And

‍
Why can't we use the same? And why don't I ask you what is it that you will need? Big companies can't do that because if it's not going to sell a million bottles, it's not worth their while. Whereas companies born on the internet are able to do that. And in that, if we make 10 such products, two of them might just become breakout best sellers before we know it. And that has happened to us on multiple occasions.

So that's how we thought that we should sort of systematize this and make this happen. Even today, if you go to our website, there's actually a section which is called crowd source to perfection, right? Where there's a list of products that we are actually working on, where you can take part in those creations. You can submit new ideas, et cetera. So we cannot really live off consumer feedback and use that as a continuous feedback loop to improve and launch new products.

Kausambi
Yeah. That brings me to this campaign that I was, you know, I noticed around nostalgia. Very funny, very interesting, quirky characters, tongue in cheek references, like loved it. Loved the way these videos made me kind of think about the first impressions like the, you know, of the equivalence of first impressions with fragrances.

Arush
Brave.

Kausambi
Was that also something that the campaign or the trigger came through crowdsourcing or was it something more internal?

Arush
No, this one is in fact not. I think with perfumes, we want to, we wanted to crowdsource them, but now there's that pressure of kind of launching products fast. Um, so, you know, so we thought now that we're launching, you know, it's like, it was like a soft launch of two fragrances, we will launch many more, which we will crowdsource, but coming to this ad, I think the whole idea here was that the brand personality of Just Herbs is that of a sage rebel, right? So.

‍
So it's a sage, but it's also a rebel, right? So it talks sense, it's the kind of voice which makes you go, okay, I never thought of it this way. But at the same time, it also challenges the status quo. So when we look at fragrance as a category, we see that it's always been sexualized, right? Because the real job of a fragrance is actually nothing. I mean, mammals produce all sorts of scents to mainly attract a mate. That's the whole idea behind fragrance.

‍
So how do you kind of sell something which you cannot sort of feel touch and how do you sort of advertise it, which is why usually fragrances are sexualized, right? And it's gone to a to a degree where, you know, there's you kind of ignore advertising around fragrances, right? The guy sprays something, four girls are falling over him, etc, etc. So we thought that what is it that fragrances can actually do for you, which is basically they can make you smell really good. Right. So and nothing beyond that. And if you if you land up ‍with a job or a date, we've got no role to play there. It's you, it's all you, right? So that was the germ of this idea. And then, you know, one thing led to the other. We set up that lift, that lift that you see in that video is actually two doors, two people standing behind, pulling it down with ropes. I mean, I'll post a video one day on how it was done. So it was a lot of fun. And then I was told that, you know, the brand that we are, people relate to us with our story, with how my mom, myself and my wife started it. So why aren't you in the video, et cetera. So it was all very, very organic, very on the spot. And we just came up with it and it's been getting a very nice response.

Kausambi
Absolutely. And I'm glad that we heard it first here, that there's a fun video behind it on how the doors are getting full. I'd love to see that. Keep us posted, I wish for sure. Definitely, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's such a deep understanding of consumer when you're seeing us, of people, when you're seeing how we just ignore fragrance apps now because of the whole over sexualization, right?

Arush
Yeah, because when we spoke to consumers, all they told us that it has to be long lasting, right? It has to smell really good. Nobody ever has the expectation that this is going to make me land a job or a date. And I think that's the reason you will get hurt because you're, you know, that's the brand personality, Sage Rebell. So it fit very beautifully.

‍

Kausambi
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I loved it. I was watching, you know, on YouTube and then you go into this, you go into the rabbit hole of even other YouTube creators, like sort of breaking it down and stuff. And I was like, this is good. This is this is one of the better made, well made, you know, videos that I've seen in a while. So recently, I think pretty recently you took a decision to step into step into offline retail and what made you

And that was very interesting for me because you started online in a world when as you said, COD was not even there. I mean, it was a hard time to start online. So why now? And when in a brand, like if you step back and you have to give advice to others, when in a brand's life cycle does offline become inevitable? And how would you advise others to think about it today?

Arush
So, you know, I'll answer it in two parts. I think the first is that we've been online before as well. And depending on who you ask, people are gonna advise you that, you know, the first 100 crores you can build online and that is when you go offline, et cetera. We had offline ambitions from day one, right? We were like, you know, really excited. We were in love with the idea of having our own stores of places where people can walk in and experience the products, right? So we were a little emotionally biased.

‍
So we had five stores of our own before the pandemic. I don't know how we were doing it, but we were doing it. And they were all paying for themselves. But when the pandemic hit, we shut all of them because that was the right thing to do, because it was all about survival. And after the pandemic was over, we thought we will recalibrate our retail strategy. And this time, what we've done is that we are following the retailer-distributor model, which is well-established in India.

So we're doing that instead of opening our stores. Right. So that's the whole thought around it. I think there is there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that whether you're a, you know, a brand born on the internet or wherever you do need a physical presence because we do live in the physical world. But having said that, you know, can you know, people used to tell us that you really can't sell things online, you know, how can somebody buy a face cream online, etc. I think that is behind us.

But having said that, I think physical touch and feel is super important. When you do it, at what part of your journey gets dictated by a lot of things, what your AOV is, et cetera, et cetera. If these are high value products, can they afford the tax of selling online? All that is separate, but you do need it at some point or the other. When is it depends from category to category brand.

Kausambi
How do you keep the essence of just herbs in, for example, the campaign itself, it's very, very you, right? It gives that flavor out, right? So how do you now give that same experience and the feel offline? And what are some of these interesting things that you're thinking about in terms of just differentiating the offline stores from other stores? Everybody's opening offline from... Yeah.

Arush
Yeah, it's a good question. That's something I think and worry about all the time. So when we had our own stores, for example, that was, it was easier. I mean, I personally, the first one I built was in Chandigarh. I personally just stood there and saw how everything is being done. We used just four materials, wood glass, three materials, wood glass and stone to build the entire store. It was all white made in marble. You couldn't miss it. I mean, the experience was, I have pictures. But now we're in a distributed model. It's even tougher. And we're still learning and still sort of perfecting it. But I guess small little things will matter. We've undergone a complete packaging overhaul to improve the shelf through of our products because your products can look a certain way if you're selling them in your own stores. Your logo does not need to really scream on the product because it's a different way of selling. But when you're...

Kausambi
Exactly.

Arush
When you're in a beauty store competing with thousands of other brands on the shelf, your brand needs to be very well seen, your packaging, even though it's the same shape of a bottle, which is a regular mold that's available in the market, how do you dress it up so that it is on brand for you and it's working for you? So all those things had to be done. And then finally, the person, the promoter who's standing there, explaining the product to the consumer has to be educated very, very well. Not saying we do it very well, but I think we're, it's a, it's a constant struggle, it's constant learning on a daily basis that we're doing the display. Um, you know, how your products are displayed, the, uh, you know, the, the materials at the points of sale. So all of those things matter. So I guess that those are the, those are the ways to tell the brand story.

Kausambi
Yeah, and the reason I asked that is because recently on one of my trips to Mumbai, I'm walking through a mall and you know, there is a Mama Art pop up on one side and then I walk down and then there's a, you know, sugar cosmetics on the other side. And honestly speaking, both were empty. You get into, there were people who are probably walking by looking a bit but not really engaging. And then, of course, the folks who are there who are standing on who are supposed to help. Like they don't, of course they don't, they're not connected to the brand. They, they're not, they get, they're not able to communicate or even give remotely to me the experience of why the brand started anything at all. Right. And then you have on the other hand, the next floor had Zara, Zara and whatever else, and then, you know, they're kind of like trained at least and there's the brand or whatever, right? So there's a bunch of young kids who are walking in. And I was just thinking, it was going running through my mind, what would make us, you know, and I want to support, there is a Mama Ad brand, there is a, I do want to get in and I do want others to go in there. And it just felt very desolate, you know, somehow. And I think that has been constantly running in my mind, like, as we are, we all have to be on the channel, like there's no question about it, right? We have to be where consumers are. But what do you do to even get consumers wherever footfalls are, you know? I'm sure you've thought about that quite a bit. Yeah.

Arush
So we've done our fair bit of experimentation with this. We've had events. So the idea was we put a store in the middle of Juhu in Bombay, pretty expensive real estate, but we thought it would give us a lot of eyeballs. We experimented putting stores in malls versus high streets. And I personally am a fan of high streets in India, more than malls. I think malls, like you said, right? I mean, they have their own set of challenges, from the brand's point of view. High Street has its own benefits. High Street's people still come and shop. Your signage is visible throughout 24-7. You can leave the sign board on, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like a display art for you. Your cap doesn't change every day because your rentals are fixed, right? The problem is how do you get consumers in, right? So you can use a bit of digital for that. So we would do a lot of events there where we would then go live on our Insta handle.

So people in the smaller cities would know, okay, this is a legit brand because they've got a store in Bombay. There are people who look like, these guys know what they should be using on their skin, are buying their products here. So let me also order something online if I'm sitting in a Kanpur or a Lucknow. Now, what we are doing is we're going actually to Kanpur and Lucknow. So we've kind of reached where these consumers are closer to them. Of course, our consumer database is much, much bigger now. So we are very data rich. So we look at that data and decide what we should do as far as offline is concerned.

Kausambi
The interesting thought you mentioned, I just wanna pull the thread there about almost, what you're doing is you're bringing online and offline together in some way with this contest or an event. And some examples or some more examples of that would be super exciting. Like have you actually run contest that drove people offline to online or offline to online to offline or anything that comes to mind?

Arush
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, so we've, you know, the offers that we have, for example, we have some offers which are available only in store, like we've had those in the past. And we've used, we've used influencers, Instagram influencers to drive awareness about a physical store, you know, something, you know, that there are people out there still who would much rather go and shop in a store, right?

‍
They know the brand, they've been sitting on the fence about it. They're somewhere in the middle of the funnel, but that conversion has to happen in the store. I don't know why. Like in the city that I live in, in Chandigarh, I think when we opened our store here, we thought it's such a, it's a very small market. Should we even do this? And when we opened the store and when the revenue started rolling in, we were noticing that we had entirely new customers, that these weren't people who shop online, right? Which kind of made us conclude that these people were not anyway, perhaps were not gonna shop online. Whether we like it or not, there is still a large chunk of people who do not feel comfortable shopping online. Of course, the people who shop online is increasing every day, but still there is a massive chunk of people who don't, right?

‍
So, you know, it's not about, you know, saying that I'm a digital brand and I'm not going to go online and, you know, stuff like that. It's just the way it is, right? You've got to be where your consumer is. It's more about the way you are.

‍

Kausambi
Do you think for luxury, like in this space for you specifically, just when I think about it and I look at your packaging and just feel the product, it is definitely luxury, right? It's more luxury than a bunch of other BPC brands that are out there. And do you think it gets more important for luxury first brands or who are at least premium brands to have a more omni-channel approach?

Arush
I think it's I don't think that's the thing right. I mean, I mean for us also We are we are more premium etc in the way we look of formulas, etc But we do have a lot of affordable price points as well. So the more of a mastige brand I would say but I think For more expensive items, which we are not what you are saying makes a lot of sense But even for people with our price back bracket and below I still think that offline is because even within offline, there are many, many formats available in India. Right. So being in a mall is just one format within the mall. Do you have your own store, whether you have a kiosk, there's a lot of formats to play. Whether you want to do beauty shops, whether you want to do modern trade, whether you want to do general trades, there's your price point and your brand, you know, will also dictate the choice of the channel. So one way or the other, you have to, it's important to have that offline component in the mix.

Kausambi
Loving the conversation, but as you're looking like where you are today, and it's been a long journey and building the brand with Marico as a partner too. What has been like when you think back, I'm sure having well known, well loved company like Marico, who also has deep roots, pretty much into like grassroot India, right? I'm sure they added a lot, ton of value, like talk to a little bit about that, what were some of the things that really you couldn't imagine and really opened up because of Mariko joining you very early on.

Arush
Yeah, I think we were very excited about partnering with them, mainly because they appreciate the fact that how young companies like ours have to work or should work or work by default, which is very fast and be very nimble. So we continue to be in Chandigarh where we are. It's a good arrangement in that whenever they need some learnings, those keep happening. Whenever we need any help, we reach out to them. So definitely, I mean, the points of intersection and where Mariko can help us, it's just far too many to be stating here actually. But if I had to give you some examples or even the smallest of things like, we're facing trouble with let's say a packaging vendor, and because we were very small and people don't wanna give us the best rates or do smaller MOQs, et cetera. They would open up their ecosystem to us and see how. Sometimes it works the other way around also. Sometimes we can get a better rate from somebody because they're a startup and they're getting very high rates because they're Marico. So it works both ways. It helps both people. So I think that's what a true partnership is all about. And digital learnings is another thing. So I think Marico stepped up its digital engine in a big way. It's a mandate for the management.

‍
A lot of learnings have flown in through us. We have also learned a lot in that process. Formulations, R&Ds, and other aspect where, with Marikos might, I think we have benefited immensely. So those are some of the areas I can think of.

Kausambi
Yeah, and you mentioned just before the pandemic, you had your own stores, you had to of course, take the logical step during pandemic and then things change. And then a lot of things have evolved very, very quickly in these last couple of years, it's like constantly shifting. And now with a lot of things, especially, even people are questioning like, what's really gonna happen? And so what are some of these? I think top two or three things that you're noticing very vividly as things shifted from the pandemic to now and now to the next five or 10 years, what are these top two, three things in your mind?

Arush
I think I wouldn't say I don't know when this happened, but I think I would take the last decade or so. I think people used to think that brands born on the internet are not legit brands. You can only buy you only bargain hunters go online. You know, the stuff you buy online is not genuine, etc, etc. And now, you know, that's not the case anymore.

D2C, internet first brands are legit brands. They are brands in their own right. And I think that recognition and that acceptance has definitely gone up among consumers, I think. And this is only the start, is what I think. So that's one very clear shift that I've seen. And the other thing is that, Q-Commerce is something that I'm really fascinated by. I mean, we thought people are gonna buy cup noodles, et cetera, on Q-Commerce and who would buy cosmetics? People are buying. We're getting very good responses around there. Early stages for Q-Commerce in India, but I think very, very exciting times for that, especially around the food category is what I'm seeing, but also cosmetics and beauty, et cetera, where we are at.

‍
The other thing is very excited about like you said AI as well and what that would mean for e-commerce and for our industry in particular. So yeah, so these two or three sort of areas are something I'm closely watching.

Kausambi
As we're wrapping up, I wish I could double-click a little bit more on what's coming up next. But as we wrap up, first of all, thank you so much. I really found a ton of interesting insights and love the way you as an operator, you're talking about your specific campaign and how it started, and then the ticket is running the campaign on one side, and then you're zooming out and you're talking about the next decade and things that you look forward.

I think I love that about talking to founders is that breadth that you can operate within a 30 minutes conversation. It's just amazing. What would be, as you close, what would be some advice of adding words for our listeners, specifically thinking about the consumers, right? Ultimately, all of us are building for someone. How do you advise folks to keep that in mind and what could be some of the takeaways?

Arush
I think the biggest thing is that what seems like a small niche, a small market today can become very big, very quickly before you know it. So if you really have a belief in something, keep at it. Don't read too many reports, too many market sizing studies, etc. If you have a hundred paying customers who are willing to pay you stuff, just go for it. After speaking to people like you and I, to founders, right? That is yesterday's news, right? So if a report says this market is this big, that is already done, right? I mean, don't form opinions after reading reports, speak to consumers, make product, ship product, right? Keep shipping product and keep learning, right? That's most important. And keep at it. I think those are the only two or three things I would like to say.

Kausambi
Keep shipping. I love that. That's gonna be the tagline. And with that we close Keep Shipping People and we'll definitely try and bring Aarush and probably his wife back together at some point soon. And yeah, thank you. Thank you for being on the show. And that's a wrap for today. We'll catch you guys on the next episode.

Arush
Thank you, thank you very much.

‍